I’m in Paris today. It’s raining. I’m loathe to leave my tiny space, but I will, and soon, if for no reason than because exploring is something I do.

I had a few moments to write, and in my calendar I found a conversation I had nearly a year ago.

The same conversation that promoted Real Dominants Don’t… He Said To Me, a piece that was a collection of ideas I’ve experienced in the many years I’ve been online, all tossed at me by those who were searching for their “real dominant.”

In reading the discussion, though, there was more to it than just those pieces. A conversation about dominance.

I’ll share that with you today, and I hope you’ll share with me your own thoughts on dominance and submission and how you see these ideas fitting in with your own life.

I welcomed him to Women In Charge (my group), and asked if he had any questions.

I’ll include the conversation from my point of view, using the pieces I responded to to tell the story:

The only questions i think a man should be asking a woman are ones such as “what may i do for you?”, “how may i please you?”, “what do you wish of me?”, etc.

Oh. I don’t agree at all.

I believe that a submissive (male or female or other) is as responsible for getting their needs met and communicating as any other.

I would not personally have it any other way.

i am of the opinion that whether a submissive’s needs and desires are met, or not, is the decision of their Dominant. i understand this is a lot of responsibility and work for the Dominant, and this is why many don’t want to be Dominant.

I’m going to tell you flat out this sounds like a push-back challenge.

And, I’m going to tell you that a dominant who takes on a submissive who will not ask questions beyond those you suggested deserves everything that that poor decision will bring them.

I also believe that any dominant who does not meet a submissive’s needs is responsible for releasing the submissive.

There is a VERY wide gap between need and want.

i do agree that it is a submissive’s duty to communicate their opinions, desires, and needs to their Dominant.

It is also their duty to question things, if they do not understand, get as much communication as they need to feel comfortable and happy in their relationship, and to move on, if their needs are not met, or their wants are constantly ignored.

Of course i certainly have no desire to disagree with you. In the end things should be as you wish!

Only in my own relationships. The world is not mine to control, nor would I want that responsibility.

I prefer debate with others. It broadens my thoughts.

What is a push-back challenge Miss Nookie?

In this case, it’s a suggestion, using passive words, that someone (including me) is not a “true” dominant if they don’t fit certain specific criteria that you have set.

Which I find ridiculous.

You go on to say:

Once the submissive can place requirements on the Dominant, the Dominant is no longer in charge.

Which is a logical paradox.

You are saying that a dominant that accepts your rules is not a dominant, but only a dominant who accepts this rule can be a dominant.

LOL!

I am a dominant, and I choose my own path.

However it is the Dominant who makes the final decision. That is part of the power exchange.

I agree.

At no time should the submissive be allowed to place a requirement on the Dominant. Once the submissive can place requirements on the Dominant, the Dominant is no longer in charge.

I disagree. This is part of the negotiation.

That said, if the dominant chooses, they may dissolve the relationship rather than agree.

It seems to me that you have a rather limited understanding of dominance.

We are not brittle.

Our dominance and leadership does not shatter when people act like humans.

We are not ONLY dominant when a person is submissive.

The Dominant makes decisions for the two of them.

The dominant makes decisions for their relationship. The submissive still needs to make decisions, as the dominant chooses.

Some dominants prefer to micromanage. That’s a relationship style.

Some dominants prefer a submissive who can think for themselves, and share in the mental labor of running a relationship.

That does not change their dominance.

Once the Dominant is required to comply with a requirement they are now in a submissive role.

No one is ever required to do anything. People have self-determination.

So, if the dominant chooses to do something, based on their sub’s needs or desires or hard limits, why would you say that makes them less dominant?

However once a Dominant is required to do something she is then submitting to an outside influence.

If you say require (because of a hard limit, for example), and I refuse, we do not have a relationship.

If you say require (because of a hard limit, for example), and I agree, we have a relationship I have chosen.

So, how do YOU, as a submissive, determine what is choice and what is required?

However one generally common agreement is that in a D/s relationship the submissive may have at least a few limits, while this is not the case in M/s or O/p.

This is not true.

If you ask 100 people what the difference is between D/s and M/s or O/p, and you will get 116 different answers.

Trying to define that for anyone except yourself is bad form. You are trying to make your version “the truth.”

And I find it amusing that you are educating me on this. I own my Pet. LOL!

I would suggest that you think long and hard about lecturing the true or right way of doing things to dominants. It’s bad form. I’d suggest that telling others “how to do” is a bad idea, no matter their status.

Relating how you prefer things and have experienced things is perfectly acceptable, but the rest, not so much.

Now for that fine line, if a Dominant loves an activity, say wax play for sake of discussion, but the submissive absolutely hates wax play, then a hard limit of wax play may be chosen by the submissive. This may either end the relationship, of not. If it doesn’t end the relationship, then is the Dominant submitting to a requirement of the submissive? In my view She is.

LOL!

Really? So, she makes a personal choice, and YOU, as a submissive/slave identifier have a right to take that choice from her, suggesting that you have taken the power?

WOW.

What if the submissive hates wax play because they were tortured as a small child and abused by someone who used wax on them?

Does that change your point? Or does compassion and human relations not play any part in your very black and white world?

I can do whatever I want, whenever I want. Why would I want to constantly do things that tear down, harm, dismay others, when I have SO MANY ways to build them up, make them happy, and torture them that are not outside of their limits?

What if she decides to do wax play only once a year? Is that OK with you, oh, all-knowing sub?

You see?

You are dictating what is and is not dominant, as someone who is not.

I find that incredibly ironic.

In fact the difference is huge, because now wax play is not a matter of the Dominant’s choice, but rather a restriction imposed by the submissive.

It is always the dominant’s choice. AND the submissive’s choice.

It can be no other way.

Do you not get that?

I can dismiss a sub/Pet/property/slave for ANYTHING.

They can leave for any reason.

It’s that simple.

If I choose not to, it’s because the overall value of what I get is great enough for me to continue with them, despite any limitations I may choose to accept, for reasons that have been explained to me.

I may punish them for setting those limits with things I enjoy more. Or not.

I do feel in the long term that limits undermine the power exchange relationship.

So, if you’ve been with me for 10 years, if you won’t let me saw off your leg with a chainsaw, then you’re not really a slave, and I’m not really a dominant?

At what point do you feel limits should be left by the side of the road? 1 year? 2 years? 5 years? Can I use my saw then?

Ridiculous.

A dominant’s role, whatever they call themselves, is to nurture and protect their followers, push them to grow and become more and better, to experience new things, and to learn to enjoy things they may not have in the past.

Not to boss them around with no regard for their humanity (even if that is a kink, it’s simply a kink, not real world), and needs outside of the relationship.

With regard to restrictions, it is pretty well accepted that when someone owns something, say a car, that the owner may do what she wishes with her property.

You’re right. In fact, I have often compared it to having a car or a dog.

I may CHOOSE not to change my oil. However, that will not keep my vehicle in the optimal shape for me to continue to use for as long as I wish.

Or, to use another living creature, since I owned dogs, trained them, and did rescue and rehab for 22 years…

If I continually put my dog in frightening situations that they do not like without regards for their well-being, then when I end up with a neurotic dog, I have to do something about it, or give it away, whatever.

If I create an aggressive dog, then it is my responsibility if it then goes on to hurt others, or ends up being put down.

What you are suggesting is abuse, pure and simple.

If you consent to something, it is not a hard limit. If you don’t consent, it’s off the table, and I would not touch it with a 10-foot pole. If you consent to “non-consent,” that’s cool, too, although I would still be cautious with anything that was an original hard limit, because there may be VERY good reasons.

A dog shying away from a hand should not be hit repeatedly to get over that.

I’m sorry, but your way of thinking about this, or at least your way of presenting it, is full of porn fantasy, the way it comes across.

People are not cars, and even poor treatment of a car results in consequences that any outsider could see and then understand that the owner is not a good one, were they to happen.

He ended the conversation at that point…

Which made me a bit sad. And yet, I continued on. I have conversations like this regularly. This one lasted longer and got more detailed than many.

What are your thoughts, from either side of this, or looking at D/s from the outside.

Where am I wrong (from your experience/view)? Where does what I say resonate with you?

Now, I’m going to get dressed and go out.

I’m looking forward to reading your responses, though, when I’m in again.